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  Sociopaths and polygraphs

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Author Topic:   Sociopaths and polygraphs
Ted Todd
Member
posted 09-11-2004 12:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd     Edit/Delete Message
I was at a seminar in Las Vegas last week and two agents from the Arizona AG's office were teaching interview and interrogation.

They stated that a polygraph is not effective when testing a sociopath.

What are all of your thoughts?

Jack, is this a common belief in AZ?

Ted

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Barry C
Member
posted 09-11-2004 08:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C   Click Here to Email Barry C     Edit/Delete Message
It's a myth, and there is science to back that up.

(Most people don't even know what a "sociopath" is since the DSM-4 has watered it down to "anti-social personality disorder" (or APD), which about 80% of criminals qualify for. Sociopathy, or psychopathy, is diagnosed using Hares Psychopathy Checklist.)

Let me quote Raskin and Honts from their chapter in Murray Kleiner's "Handbook of Polygraph Testing."

"Careful laboratory and field research has clearly demonstrated that poor socialization and psychopathy do not reduce accuracy of comparison question tests."

"The extensive scientific literature demonstrates that polygraph techniques are highly effective in detecting deception in poorly socialized and psychopathic individuals, but highly socialized individuals and even psychopaths may be subject to false positive errors (Honts et al., 1985; Patrick and Iacono, 1986)."

There are several studies cited in the chapter if you are interested. (Keep in mind Iacono is usually testifying against polygraph.) There is also evidence to support GKTs, CITs, POTs, or whatever you want to call them (recognition tests), are effective on psychopaths as well.

The reason people teach such foolishness is becasue they have a very narrow uderstanding as to why a guilty person / liar might react physiologically. They think that because a person has no guilt feelings about the crime, he will not be concerned about the questions during a polygraph exam, but keep in mind psychopaths are generally highly intelligent. They know they don't want to get caught - and go to jail, so they should fear the consequences of getting caught, which should result in reactions to the relevant questions.

Psychologist Paul Ekman in his book "Telling Lies" (which I say is a must read if your serious about detecting deception) discusses what he calls "duping delight," which is the thrill some get from fooling (by lying) others, which could also result in physiological responses.

There are other reasons why a psychopath might react, but your on your own from here.

Much of what is taught today in interview and interrogation classes is the opposite of what science tells us. E.g., many believe an increase in hand and finger movements during deception is a "clue" to deception when science tells us the opposite is true. i.e. a decrease is your cue.

We dump all over voice stress - and rightfully so - but we peddle the same garbage - in a different package - in many of our interview and interrogation courses. I'd be curious to know what your instructors based their opinions on. It wasn't the scientific literature, which would make me wonder where the rest of their material came from.

By the way, the only scientific studies I've seen show police officers - including polygraph examiners - are no better than chance at recognizing deception. (Untrained college students often do better - about 55%.) The exception is the Secret Service. They usually fair about 60% or better, but nobody is sure why. The irony is, the police - and I am one - are usually much more confident in their wrong decisions.

The good new is, according to Aldert Vrij (another must-read), you can learn to detect deception via verbal and non-verbal behavior if you know what to look for. (And, some people are just naturals. They drive the psychologists crazy, because they (the psychs) can't figure out what the detectors are basing their decisions on, but it's probably a number of things.)

I've rambled enough, but like I said above, it's a myth.

Maybe you can email them and set them straight?

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Ted Todd
Member
posted 09-12-2004 10:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd     Edit/Delete Message
Barry

Thanks for the input. I don't know where this crap comes from and why cops continue to teach it. I have recently read Dr. Hare's book which confirms what you are saying. I also plan to get "Telling Lies" next.

Ted

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LSUPoly
Member
posted 09-13-2004 11:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LSUPoly   Click Here to Email LSUPoly     Edit/Delete Message
I just got back from attending the Reid Technique of Investigative Interviewing Child Abuse Seminar. The first two days was like sitting through polygraph pre-test interview 101. The course basically put most of the things experienced interviewers do into a format based on the Reid Institutes own research. This course was tailored to sex offender, but the basic outline can be applied to any investgative interview. It was nice having an instructor from a polygraph background confirm what I use in my interviews. I would reccomend the course to all new investigators and as a tune up to more experienced investigators.
Ben

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J L Ogilvie
Moderator
posted 09-14-2004 09:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for J L Ogilvie   Click Here to Email J L Ogilvie     Edit/Delete Message
Ted, I think this is a commonly held misconception by the general public. I here from subjects all the time that they heard Psychopaths,sociopaths and pathological liars can pass test easily.

As far as the instructors go, if you tell me who they are I will try to enlighten them. Who was this seminar for?

Jack

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Ted Todd
Member
posted 09-14-2004 02:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd     Edit/Delete Message
Jack,

It was the Western States Project Introduction to Criminal Environmental Investigations. The speakers were Agents Tom Welch and Andy Rubalcava from the AGs Office. Both EXCELLENT instructors but apparently misinformed in regards to the polygraph.

Ted

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J L Ogilvie
Moderator
posted 09-14-2004 05:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for J L Ogilvie   Click Here to Email J L Ogilvie     Edit/Delete Message
Ted, thanks. I'll try to put a bug in their ear and point them toward some of the reading material listed above by Barry. Did you get an e-mail for either of them?

Every little bit helps.

Jack

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[This message has been edited by J L Ogilvie (edited 09-14-2004).]

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Ted Todd
Member
posted 09-15-2004 09:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd     Edit/Delete Message
Jack,

No such luck on the emails but give me a call and I can provide phone numbers.

Ted

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LouRovner
Administrator
posted 09-23-2004 04:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LouRovner   Click Here to Email LouRovner     Edit/Delete Message
We hsve known since 1978 that psychopaths cannot produce false negative outcomes any more than anybody else. An extensive research project showed that the accuracy rate for diagnosed psychopaths is virtually the same rate as non-psychopaths (around 96% correct decisions)using a CQT. The citation is:

Raskin, D.C. & Hare, R.D. Psychopathy and Detection of Deception In A Prison Population. Psychophysiology, 1978.

Unfortunately, there are some people out there who don't let the facts get in the way of their opinions.

Lou

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Ted Todd
Member
posted 09-23-2004 06:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd     Edit/Delete Message
Thanks Lou!

Ted

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Capstun
Member
posted 09-28-2004 03:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Capstun     Edit/Delete Message
Earlier this year I polygraphed a diagnosed sociopath and suspected serial rapist. He was deceptive and after about a 4 hour post test, he confessed. Two different psychologist had diagnosed him in treatment as a sociopath. He is now resting comfortably in federal prison.

Just for info.

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